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what builds more power?

  
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what builds more power?

 
redneckjoe69 redneckjoe69
Addict | Posts: 2337 | Joined: 03/10
Posted: 06/15/13
04:55 PM

what do you guys think builds more power on 2 similar engines,.....bringing the compression way up and running race gas,....or,....better heads and cam?   {cant say both, lol.}

  thoughts?    opinions?    experience?    lets hear it! Cool  

68scott385 68scott385
Guru | Posts: 1990 | Joined: 10/09
Posted: 06/15/13
05:52 PM

serve OR protect? Grin  
68scott385 68scott385 68scott385

Dave632 Dave632
Addict | Posts: 2222 | Joined: 07/08
Posted: 06/15/13
06:14 PM

Without a doubt better heads and cam.
I raised the compression 1 point + gas porting the new pistons, 14 to 15-1, on the 632 in the Beretta and it picked up 3 mph in the 1/8th on motor. That already had ported Big Chief heads and an .800+ lift roller in it so I can't compare anything there but the Big Chief heads are supposed to be worth 100 hp or so over conventional Chevy BB heads by themselves.  
[[SUPPORT AMERICAN CARS, STOMP A RICE CAR TODAY.]]

tuffnuff tuffnuff
Moderator | Posts: 7827 | Joined: 12/09
Posted: 06/15/13
06:17 PM

From an Engineer's viewpoint,
Joe, your post got my attention.,. even though I don't post as often on the forums, I felt that I should respond to this.
"ALL" your power is generated in the combustion chambers of the heads.<--- period.
Upping compression and adding more cam will do little to improve the volumetric efficiency of the engine, once the flow curtain of the valve or port/runner is reached, the engine gags. Modern aluminum fast burn heads address this flow shortcoming and are highly recommended for any serious build.
It's all about more air/fuel in and of course out with an efficient exhaust system.
The cam choice now becomes the obvious, to match the flow characteristics of the head.
Better heads are by far.,. the most prudent choice.

Smile  
When The Flag Drops.,.

tuffnuff

The Bull ***t Stops.,.
tuffnuff

P. Engineer, Engine Builder

zman123 zman123
Enthusiast | Posts: 531 | Joined: 06/08
Posted: 06/15/13
06:20 PM

I'm also going with heads and cam. I built a jeep straight 6 and changed heads and picked up 40 HP. When I did the same with my small block in my truck from stock 72cc heads to 64cc World Sportsman II's the change was quite noticeable, and that was in a 5000+ Lb 4x4. In that case, the heads also raised the comp ratio too.  

skyeking skyeking
Addict | Posts: 2738 | Joined: 08/09
Posted: 06/15/13
09:19 PM

Hi there,
 To defuse the project remember that
 the wrong Carby can kill all the potential
 of the heads/cam combo..Blending is the key
 word...Have fun...Skyeking..  
skyeking

Pontiacman2 Pontiacman2
Moderator | Posts: 8956 | Joined: 09/08
Posted: 06/16/13
06:18 AM

All your power is in the heads with out good heads you have nothing.  
Pontiacman2
Pontiacman2

Professional Hi-performance engine builder

tuffnuff tuffnuff
Moderator | Posts: 7827 | Joined: 12/09
Posted: 06/16/13
09:14 AM

We seem to be in agreement that better heads & cam offer the biggest bang for the buck.

Smile  
When The Flag Drops.,.

tuffnuff

The Bull ***t Stops.,.
tuffnuff

P. Engineer, Engine Builder

p2-72chevelle383 p2-72chevelle383
Guru | Posts: 1757 | Joined: 08/09
Posted: 06/16/13
09:58 AM

Yep heads and cam. Its all about combo.  
p2-72chevelle383

redneckjoe69 redneckjoe69
Addict | Posts: 2337 | Joined: 03/10
Posted: 06/16/13
10:34 AM

all good stuff! Cool


  say we introduce a power adder like a twin turbo.

 1. would you go for boost,{compression}, & appropriete race fuel, or,...

 2, go for better flowing heads, cam, etc, ?


    from what i understand, on a boosted motor,...good flowing heads don't mean as much. ????    
     true?   false?    thoughts?

    i enjoy bench racing and learning from ALL you guys. Cool      all input is welcome.

     happy fathers day guys! Smile  

Dave632 Dave632
Addict | Posts: 2222 | Joined: 07/08
Posted: 06/16/13
03:16 PM

On a twin turbo engine most of the guys run fairly low compression; 7.5-8.5.
I would imagine that with forced induction the heads are slightly less important but I would guarantee that the same motor with twin turbos and good flowing heads vs not so good would make more power with good flowing heads.  
[[SUPPORT AMERICAN CARS, STOMP A RICE CAR TODAY.]]

idrivejunk idrivejunk
Addict | Posts: 5117 | Joined: 12/09
Posted: 06/16/13
06:05 PM

I think once you max out a naturally aspirated design's air flow potential with race gas, of course the next step is boost to cram more in. Then boost plus race fuels, alcohol, or nitrous. After that, tuning is all thats left and the durability of available parts would be the limiting factor of maximum power.  
idrivejunk

pepsi1 pepsi1
Guru | Posts: 1718 | Joined: 09/11
Posted: 06/16/13
09:11 PM

Induction. But you need to Match the components to see the real power increases...

Bob  

skyeking skyeking
Addict | Posts: 2738 | Joined: 08/09
Posted: 06/16/13
11:56 PM

It only takes one faulty spark plug to rain on the Parade  
skyeking

ethelkilledfred-#001 ethelkilledfred-#001
Guru | Posts: 1371 | Joined: 03/10
Posted: 06/21/13
06:53 AM

I disagree on all points, I like compression, we broke all the rules and the car still ran fast-

We ran a junkyard high compression (for a turbo) 10:1 motor with a turbo and did not break any stock parts. We did it with a Cutlass on E85 and we did it with a twin turbo Mustang on pump gas.

http://youtu.be/3x5O-ULT6Xk

Bsrcutlassincc Zps831340f9



WTF? BUILDERS
Is your budget tight? Build
something like this Oldsmobile.
By John McGann/ Photos: John McGann
CC 8-13 Pg 63


...Some of our friends from the Brotherhood of Street Racers shuffled some parts around and concocted this hooptie: a turbocharged TPI engine running on E85 in a '80 Oldsmobile Cutlass

The best guess anyone of them can come up with is that the car cost them a total of $2,000 to build. It's not much to look at, but that's seen as an advantage to these guys. We snapped these pictures at Vehicle Liquidation Used Cars in Littlerock, California, where the sales guys were more than willing to go along with the joke, offering to give this pile to anyone with guts enough to take it home.

The engine is out of a Suburban from the junkyard, as are the TPI intake parts. It runs on MegaSquirt's V3 ECM, which is capabe of handling up to 21 psi of boost. The turbocharger is one of those really cheap, no-name ones from eBay, and it breathes directly into the engine rather than running through an intercooler. Intake temperatures are not a concern, because the car is fueled by E85, which has a lower latent heat of veporization than gasoline. You can feel this yourself by dripping some alcohol on your skin. As it evaporates, the alcohol pulls a lot of heat from the area. making your skin feel cold. In an engine, E85 and other alcohol-based fuels can lower temperatures in the intake by 50 degrees or more.

The rest of the drivetrain is stock, and probably the only reason the transmission and rearend aren't smoldering piles of parts (yet) is because the turbocharger is big. Very little thought was put into choosing it; a 77mm unit was picked basically because someone thought it sounded good. It doesn't spool quickly, so power comes on gradually, making it easier on the stock parts. "You can make junk parts run," say our racer buddies, implying that all you need is a bigger turbo. There are limits to this, however, and it's likely that. in the case of this combination, the engine is done reving before the turbocharger is close to making enough boost to wipe out the bottom end of this block.

The point is that even a mismatched combination can be fast. END



-+SOURCES

Gale Banks; 800/510-5041;

BanksPower.com/tc1


Garrett;

TurbosByGarrett.com


Lund Racing;

Facebook.com/LundRacing


Addiciton Motorsports;

AddictionMotorsports.com


Deeds Performance;

DeedsPerformance.com


Nelson Racing Engines;

NelsonRacingEngines.com


Vehicle Liquidation Used Cars;

Vehicle-Liquidation.com


WRAP-UP

We've ventured into the world of turbocharging before, most notably with Ted Toki's '55 Chevy in the Sept.'10 and Apr.'11 issues of Car Craft, but we felt it was time to revisit the issue now. We will be building on this foundation with more in-depth coverage of turbo builds, and we'll even tackle a few of our own. including the concoction Editor Glad is brewinq for his 71 Demon. In the meantime, check out some of these online resources for more information, and email us with ideas of your own at CarCraft@CarCraftcom.  
-

Brotherhood of Street Racers

My Space Brotherhood of Street Racers
http://www.myspace.com/brotherhoodofstreetracers

BSR-International
http://bsr-international.ning.com/

ethelkilledfred-#001ethelkilledfred-#001

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