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350 small block help

  
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350 small block help

 
PVT_Youngster PVT_Youngster
New User | Posts: 3 | Joined: 01/13
Posted: 01/16/13
12:22 AM

I am new to this forum so forgive me if this has been asked before which I am sure it has, I am buying a 1978 Camaro z28 with a 350 small block and would like the car to have 430-500 wheel horse power. I have about 6k to put into the engine what is the best way to go about making my stock camaro into a hot rod with respectable torque and horses?  

pepsi1 pepsi1
Guru | Posts: 1718 | Joined: 09/11
Posted: 01/16/13
04:59 AM

PVT_Youngster welcome to CHP:

I'm going to be right up front with you. To make 430-500 rear wheel horse power you will need to make approx. 700-750 horse power at the crank. You will loose approx. 25%-30% of the power through the driveline.

  Your 78 Camaro is a  heavy weight, I know I have a 79 Z28&81 Z28. So you will loose that much HP. It can be done and your $6,000 will be gone in a heart beat, and so will another $14,000 to $16,000?

  Start off with the best engine and driveline you can afford, then put 3 or 4 stages of Juice on it and it will get you there. I've never driven a car with Juice, I've been in them. It's a violent ride believe me.... Grin  Cool  

  We have a Pro-Mod owner/driver on our forum, that had 4 stages of Juice on his Beretta. I hope he comes in and puts his advice into what you want to do.....
But stay with us Okay. We can build you horse power....You came to the right site/forum. I'm not picking on you we want to help you....You'll see the wisdom come out from us guys.Stay Tuned...

Bob  

68scott385 68scott385
Guru | Posts: 1990 | Joined: 10/09
Posted: 01/16/13
07:20 AM

Don't forget the rest of the car. The motor makes xxx hp but the stock transmission will take a dump the first time you get on it hard. If the trans isn't the first to go the rearend will be. You have to build a car as a unit consisting of several smaller systems.  
68scott385 68scott385 68scott385

pepsi1 pepsi1
Guru | Posts: 1718 | Joined: 09/11
Posted: 01/16/13
08:06 AM

+1 Scott:

We did this for someone else just before the holidays. Never heard from the poster.

Bob  

68scott385 68scott385
Guru | Posts: 1990 | Joined: 10/09
Posted: 01/16/13
10:38 AM

I built my first hotrod from front to rear. Every hotrod since has been rear to front.

It's a typical young gun mistake to get caught up in the hp and forget about the torque convertor, transmission, rear gears, rear axles, suspension components, and the biggie...if it goes fast, you have to be able to stop it, don't forget the brakes.  
68scott385 68scott385 68scott385

PVT_Youngster PVT_Youngster
New User | Posts: 3 | Joined: 01/13
Posted: 01/16/13
01:51 PM

I was looking into buying a tremec t-56 magnum elite transmission kit which is rated to 700hp and 700ft lbs torque  

76Skylark 76Skylark
Guru | Posts: 853 | Joined: 12/11
Posted: 01/16/13
04:24 PM

Icon QuotePVT_Youngster:
I was looking into buying a tremec t-56 magnum elite transmission kit which is rated to 700hp and 700ft lbs torque

Now this is me and you don't have to listen,  But.........6,000 bucks burning a hole in me Pocket.......  Do What I Say,   Don't Do As I do.  comprende Amigo!. So the Best deal I have Seen Is Buy An engine, From Coast re builders get a Gen IV 454 3500 bucks. get a 9" ford rear ..you should find one for around a grand 3.55 rear gear with a tru trac( POSI). find a 700r4 trans w/converter If you look you can find one for another Grand.Upgrade the frame with new bushings and or brakes and Sway bars another grand 'cause you Buy all as a kit. when you get to where you have found ALL its potential and want More then I will Help some more. I am Definitely not trying to be a Smart A.., this is real, in a real world.  

PVT_Youngster PVT_Youngster
New User | Posts: 3 | Joined: 01/13
Posted: 01/16/13
09:32 PM

Thank you for the helpful tips, finding a ford 9" rear is harder than I thought  

pepsi1 pepsi1
Guru | Posts: 1718 | Joined: 09/11
Posted: 01/17/13
01:29 AM

I would call Curry or Moser and get prices. It won't be difficult to get a 9" Ford rear built. They make them for your application.

You will need to really strengthen the rear of the Camaro. It should have an 8.5" Ring gear in it. (Theres money sell it)...

Back Half the Camaro, and have it done by a PRO-Chassis-Shop, and get references!
A minimum of a 10PT. Roll Cage. maybe 14PT

I am skeptical about used rears/housings. The housing could be bent and you may not know it. The last thing you need is 500 HP pushing your ride toward the wall.

This story is not to scare you its just the experience, and if you do purchase a used housing, have it checked out....

This is a true and serious story:...I have a friend that purchased a Pro Stock Monza back in the day. I went to a Test/Tune @ E-Town in NJ. One tire Hazed up real quick, the other side barley Hazed. I told him something was wrong, but this guy never listened to anyone. He had a partner.(Dana 60 Rear). We put another set of tires on it. Did the same thing. I played with the (4 link). Blah, Blah, Blah.
  He made a couple back to back runs. The more heat the tires had the worse the pull was. So we played with air pressure. Those days you could watch a car make a pass. This Monza was all over. I told him get it to a Chassis Shop Then. He said they were going to Maryland that weekend with the car. Enough Said. His partner Flipped the car at the big end 140+ MPH. He was in the hospital for a 2 weeks with a compound fracture of his R/Femur. Now their looking for answers?
  I helped him get it to a well known Chassis Shop in Jersey. It didn't take the guys 10 Minutes to figure it out. They knew the car. The Dana 60 was bent, and the previous owner wasn't going to replace the rear he was selling the car out. He could have atleast told them, and haggled the price.
  Pete the guy that took the ride (Was Lucky) said the car made a violent R/Turn went up the Jersey Barrier and flipped over. Everything was a question after that. What they found with the rear housing being bent, it caused the carrier bearings to load up and they litterly exploded. Locked the rear, broke the driveshaft, and ripped the power-glide from its mounts. They fixed the car. Monza's had a short wheel base which didn't help. True story, they had the car for 3 seasons after the one season it took to fix it....

Bob  

pepsi1 pepsi1
Guru | Posts: 1718 | Joined: 09/11
Posted: 01/17/13
01:45 AM

Dave632 is quite busy these days.
  I hope he pops in to give you some pointers on fogging the engine. He is the owner/driver of a Pro-Mod Berreta. I believe he has retired from racing. He can give you the real scoop on Juice. I don't know anything about it.

  As Scott said, start at the rear and work forward. There are so many options for the Ford 9".

A 33 spline axle with a good posi unit. "NEVER USE A MINI OR FULL SIZE SPOOL for the STREET". It's suicide waiting to happen.

Have the axles drilled for atleast 2 different bolt patterns.

An (N-Case) 9" is easy to see. It has the (N) in the center of the 3rd member. They have aluminum. Go to www.strangeengineering.com they will send you a catalog.

Your going to need the strength in the back of the Camaro. Narrowed,Back-Halfed, with either Ladder bars, or a 4 Link set-up. Gear Ratio? Grin  Cool

This just scratches the surface....

Bob  

76Skylark 76Skylark
Guru | Posts: 853 | Joined: 12/11
Posted: 01/17/13
06:22 AM

Icon QuotePVT_Youngster:
Thank you for the helpful tips, finding a ford 9" rear is harder than I thought

Don't know where you live but here in Georgia (Atl.) there are at least 6 on Craigslist and pull apart Yards sell them Complete for 100.00 bucks or Less.and Most 70's Fords with the bigger engines all used them, Look behind Houses(yard art) in Barns and junk yards.  

pepsi1 pepsi1
Guru | Posts: 1718 | Joined: 09/11
Posted: 01/18/13
03:34 AM

PVT_Youngster
The 3rd member has to different size rear gears. The very eary 9" Fords are 9 inch. IE the Big 1964 Ford Galaxie Station Wagons and down, some Ranchero's and mostly cars with leaf springs. There are later ones that are 8.8" rear gears. You don't want them...
If you can pull the 3rd member out measure the ring gear. Or the very early Ford 9" rears had tags by the fill plug on a stud....Has all the info on it....

Bob

Bob  

Dave632 Dave632
Addict | Posts: 2218 | Joined: 07/08
Posted: 01/18/13
08:22 PM

Icon Quotepepsi1:
Dave632 is quite busy these days.
  I hope he pops in to give you some pointers on fogging the engine. He is the owner/driver of a Pro-Mod Berreta. I believe he has retired from racing. He can give you the real scoop on Juice. I don't know anything about it.

  As Scott said, start at the rear and work forward. There are so many options for the Ford 9".

A 33 spline axle with a good posi unit. "NEVER USE A MINI OR FULL SIZE SPOOL for the STREET". It's suicide waiting to happen.

Have the axles drilled for atleast 2 different bolt patterns.

An (N-Case) 9" is easy to see. It has the (N) in the center of the 3rd member. They have aluminum. Go to www.strangeengineering.com they will send you a catalog.

Your going to need the strength in the back of the Camaro. Narrowed,Back-Halfed, with either Ladder bars, or a 4 Link set-up. Gear Ratio? Grin  Cool

This just scratches the surface....

Bob


Hi Bob,
        We have been tearing into our house project and we have a nice pit instead of floors in our house, what a mess.
I will be glad to help with any nitrous information I could provide. Getting 700-750 out of a 350 is possible with the juice but you have better have all your ducks in a row. Bob gave me credit for one more stage than I had on my Beretta. I had 2 fogger stages and 2 plates but the 2 plates were under the 2 1150 carbs I had on the tunnel ram so it was really 3 stages. I wish I could have used all the power I could make with that 632" motor but I could never get it to the ground.
By all means you will need forged pistons, aluminum rods are a plus but if you are street driving it they are not the best way to go. A good quality crank is also a necessity.
Like Bob said you will need about 700-750 to get 500+ to the rear wheels especially with a high stall converter. Make sure you run a hobbs switch to the nitrous fuel supply which will cut off the juice if the fuel supply cuts off.
The fogger systems do not hit as hard as the plate systems so they are slightly better for lower traction conditions. They are more expensive and require 8 jets each for the fuel and nitrous or 16 in total. Whereas plate systems just need 2.
You can add up to 5 or 600hp extra with a fogger system and up to 2-300 with a plate.
You will need all your drivetrain parts up to snuff to handle that kind of power or you will be breaking things all over the place. If you only have 6K to invest I doubt you will be able to get all you need.
I would build a good engine first get it running right then put your nitrous on system on it and hang on. A dedicated fuel system just for the nitrous is a good idea too. There is a lot to it so keep asking questions. You can have a car that can be used on the street and the strip but there will always have to be a compromise. I learned that lesson many years ago as that is how I started.
As mentioned by skylark a BB is a step ahead and it is much easier to reach your goal with a BB. That is all I ran in my most recent cars.
Here is a picture of the car I once raced, it was taken before any of the nitrous was put on. It looked like a plumbers nightmare after that:

MVC 026S 2  
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