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350 chevy compression/performance questi  
rick2950
New User | Posts: 4 | Joined: 03/05
Posted: 01/29/06
08:09 PM

I have a 66 Impala SS ragtop with a small block chevy 350 and Turbo 350 auto tranny.
I just like to drive it around now and then and go to a show.



My motor is making some very odd noise that we now believe to be in the bottom end.
The few who have listened to it have not had a solid guess.
The last guess was "maybe it is a wrist pin"
Sounds like the lifters do not quite oil up.
The noise is present when I let off the gas and the rpm's start to decrease.


I have replaced the cam/lifters/valve springs/push rods and rocker arms but the noise is still present so that is why I now believe it is bottom end.


A local shop wants $825 to completely re-do my short block.
Due to the wifes '67 Camaro taking up our money right now, $825 is a bit steep at this time.


A guy I work with has a 350 with approx 5,000 miles on it that he will sell me for $400.
The issue about this motor is he stated "it just has some low compression pistons in it so you can run any gas without ping"


So,,, if I just want a short block that is known to have no issues but has some lower compression pistons (no idea what compression exactly) for a decent price do I buy that or do I really need to wait until I can specify the pistons for a higher compression?


My current pistons are just some flat tops that I have no idea what the compression rating would be.


My cam is a new comp cams 12-242-2
                                 int      exh
       adv duration        268     280
dur @ .050                224     230
valve lift                    .477    .480
lobe seperation 110
the heads are the old style camel hump heads that were gone thru a few years back.
my intake is your basic Edelbrock Performer RPM


So, I will listen to anyones input on the "buy the unknown low compression motor for $400" or "wait til you can specify your compression"  


If I do buy the $400 motor, my new cam, lifters, valve springs, intake, heads will all go onto that bottom end.


I want to get this noise issue resolved so I can have my 40 series flowmaster mufflers finally put on.


Thanks Much.


rick2950   at    hotmail

 

 
SSmonte408
User | Posts: 106 | Joined: 11/03
Posted: 01/30/06
09:53 AM

have you seen the motor?  If the pistons are dished i wouldn't do it, but if they are flat tops with valve reliefs i wouldn't worry about it.   


 
danoman3
New User | Posts: 28 | Joined: 12/05
Posted: 01/30/06
03:20 PM

Hello


From the description you gave of your current motor, I would say you are correct in believing the bottom end is suspect. As for rebuilding or replacing, that would depend on how long your current engine has made "those" noises, and how deep or serious it sounds when it does knock. If it has been only a "few" times that you heard the knock and it wasn't at a high rpm, then I would save it for a later rebuild and intstall the $400 motor for now. If on the other hand the motor has "GOD AWFUL" knock, the labor and materials to repair it probably won't be worth it. As for the $400 motor, so what if it has low compression pistons, and if that is an issue, you could change the head gaskets to the steel shim versions as long as the deck and heads are truely flat. And at that point if you decide to replace the head gaskets you might as well dig deeper and replace the pistons with the ones you want, and now you are approaching the cost of a rebuild which is what you current motor needs now, this obviously creates a bit of a dilema for you. If it were me I would install the $400 motor, yank the knocking one, tear it down, see whats good and bad and fix it as time and money allow, and int the meantime enjoy driving your car.

 

 
oldBogie
Guru | Posts: 1195 | Joined: 08/03
Posted: 02/01/06
10:35 AM

Lets start with noises then move to replacement.


 


Engine sounds can be hard to pin down as to their cause. Typically they can be reduced to the following, but and there’s plenty of space for “buts”. This is only a pointer not a method of specific diagnostics.


 


Bottom end sounds from the crankshaft can be sorted into reciprocating and rotational sounds.


 


1)      Connecting rod bearings make a characteristic double click or thud with each crankshaft revolution. This sound is usually more noticeable at start up or idle and may be very prevalent when slowing from cruising speed to idle, like when you come off a freeway ramp with a stop, because the oil pressure falls low and the clearances move to their maximums. It may also be present at cruise RPMs under light load. It’s a fairly heavy sound. Pin noise is similar but tends to be lighter or more click like in tonal quality. A cracked piston skirt or excessive skirt clearance is also a double click and is mighty hard for the inexperienced ear to tell from pin or rod bearing noises. These noises will sometimes tend to pick up when the throttle is dropped as this reduces compression which allows the offenders more movement over TDC. These sounds can be tested for by running the engine at idle and grounding (shorting) one spark plug at a time. The offending cylinder or cylinders will quiet down when the plug isn’t firing them.


2)      Main rod bearing noise is a single heavy thud in time with rotation. Loose dampers or flywheel/flexplates demonstrate a similar cadence but the tonal quality is lighter and higher.


3)      Cam gears and chain noise is usually easy to pick out with a stethoscope against the timing cover. Excessive wear can be tested for with a timing light, disconnect the vacuum advance. Then with the timing light firing, run the RPMs up to a couple to 3 thousand and drop the throttle closed. If the timing marks bounce all over the place, it’s a good sign the timing gears and chain need replacing.


 


Top end noises tend to be more clicking sounds in time to half crankshaft speed.


1)      The SBC went through a period of eating cam lobes and lifters. If the wear has reached a point where the hydraulic lifer can no longer compensate it will begin to click. A cylinder that constantly oil fouls its plug is a good sign that the lobe and lifter are gone.


2)      Hydraulic lifters get dirty or tired and stop functioning they cause a click.


3)      Certainly other problems like bent pushrods and worn rocker balls, loose studs, sticking valves also cause top end clicks. Sometimes the offenders can be found by hand cranking the engine through its timing cycle, as each cylinder is in firing position you can grasp the pushrod in your fingers and try to rotate it. Cylinders with lash problems will allow the pushrod to spin without any effort. Those in good shape will either take some force or not allow any rotation. Another test is to run the engine at idle with the rocker covers off. When pushing on the pushrod side of the rocker, the sound goes away, you found a problem area. This is a messy test that requires you make or buy some partial covers to prevent oil from going everywhere. Expect to be pinched.


 


Accessory sounds can be found with a stethoscope or disconnecting the drive belts.


 


Oil pressure can be a problem that results in sounds. This can range from insufficient delivery from the pump due to wear, a failed bypass spring, system leakage resulting from a blown out galley plug or excessive bearing clearance, a failed filter bypass valve combined with a plugged filter or a plugged intake screen or passage. Perhaps insufficient oil drains back from the heads. Any of these could starve the engine for oil resulting in failures that cause noises.


 


Replacement: How many miles on on your engine? A cam change on a high mileage engine and transmission is not a good idea. It dumps a lot of extra force on tired parts which will soon rebel.


 


Your cam is bit toward to wild for a low compression engine, you'll quickly find the bottom end power is gone. So a 400 dollar short block is going to cost you for a set of decent pistons. On the good side, at 5000 miles you should be able to put in new pistons and rings with nothing more than a light hone job. Still you're going to start pushing against the $825 the shop wants to do your short block. If you're not doing the piston change labor of tearing the $400 block apart and putting it back together, that will for sure cost you the $825. Then there's the transmission, you cannot put a fresh engine on a tired automatic. It'll just tear the auto up in a month or so and that's another cost. Automatics wear out at about the same rate as an engine, so as the engine's power falls off with age so does the transmissions ability to transfer and manage that power. So you might as well plan on doing the tranny along with the bottom end.


 


Bogie

 

 
danoman3
New User | Posts: 28 | Joined: 12/05
Posted: 03/03/06
02:28 PM

hello,


Hey it's been awhile since this message has been up, but if you are still playing around with the knocking motor, here's a test you can do to narrow it down. With your car in park, run it up until you hear the knock and note the rpm. If you can't get it to knock in park, block the wheels and do what ever it takes to keep the car from moving while in gear. Run it up again until you hear the knock and note the rpms where it occurs. drop down to idle and pull a plug wire (any one will do at this point). Run the engine back up again to the rpm where the knock was, if you no longer hear the knock, then that is the rod or main saddle that is bad. If you still hear the knock, then repeat the process again until you no longer hear the knock. What you are doing is relieving the load on the rod/crank at where the plug is to help eliminate the knock.

 

 
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